The Lord's Table question . . .

[VanessaS]

I have a basic question about the Lord's Table for those of you who do it - I know there's a Trainer who does because my mentor told me she knew of T-Tapp because of you!! Anyway, I'm on day 48 of 60 and am still struggling with ONLY eating when my belly growls. I'll tell you why. #1 is that 12 years ago I did Weigh Down and lost all my pregnancy weight and more in a short time (like 3-4 months). I didn't actually go through the class, I just applied the principles. Now looking back on it, it seem like I actually starved myself thin. Not desiring to do this again I'm a little skeptical about the principle and don't want to become legalistic about it as I was before. #2 Are there any studies or research that actually show that when your stomach growls is the "ideal" time to eat and that it's calling for food? It's like my husband said when your stomach growls you know for sure you're hungry, but there are times you KNOW you're hungry (physical hunger not mental hunger) and your stomach is not growling. I also don't find this principle in the Word anywhere and just wonder how accurate it really is.

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them!!

[Piglet2u]

Hi Vanessa.
I don't believe that starving yourself is a healthy way to lose weight.
Fasting for spiritual reasons is just that. It should not be done with weight loss as the primarly goal. The primary goal in fasting is to seek God's will as your primary focus with as little distraction as possible.

Our bodies were designed to function in a certain way and to be fed the best God created for us. That is why He gave us eating guidelines in Leviticus. Some great reading there. He said we can eat anything, in the NT, but that was not to say that anything is beneficial for us. Do you understand what I'm saying? E.G. you can put anything in a gas tank, but the manufacturer tells you which fuel will run your car more efficiently.

Water is a great example. If you wait until you feel thirst, you are already dehydrated. Our bodies need water regularly throughout the day. E.G. Do you only tend to your car when the oil light comes on? If you do, you are already running low on oil, which can lead to damages throughout the car.

Our metabolisms are like a fire. If the fire dwindles down to embers, is it a good idea to throw a yule log on it? (a huge log). You are going to be cold for a long time before those embers can set that log on fire.

But if you put kindling on the embers, that they can handle more efficiently and the flames will catch more quickly and then when you have flames, they can better handle some logs to burn.

That is how to keep our metabolisms going. Eat smaller meals regularly. Don't wait until your tummy is growling at you. If you start to feel a little hungry between meals, have a snack with you like some nuts, trail mix, fruit, home made peanut butter crackers made with healthy choices, etc. It you're home, have some healthy yogurt or a piece of fruit with a slice of cheese or some other protein.

Eat a variety of foods. Teresa tells us this in her God-Made/Man-Made plan. Eat a variety of colors.

When you starve your body it goes into survival mode and whatever you eat it will store the majority of it because it doesn't know when it will be fed again. When you eat regularly, your elimination is regular too as your body operates more efficiently to process what you gave it. Of course the idea is to give our bodies the very best "fuels". That is where many of us falter. We focus on what our tongues and taste buds want, rather than what our bodies want.

Head knowledge doesn't do any good if it's not applied. I wish I knew years ago what I know now and that I had developed healthier habits years ago. My body would be quite different today if I had been more disciplined years ago.

But you know what? It's never too late to start doing the right things. Our bodies will respond and we will become much healthier. Consistency is key.

I hope this helps you. :)

[JenniferT]

Piglet2u had great things to say. I know if I wait until I am feeling hunger pangs I eat too much at one sitting and usually feel yucky after. I try and eat 4-5x a day and do best with that. I am also hypoglycemic so I often crash if I don't eat enough through out the day.

[JeanM]

Piglet, good job:clappinghands: Me thinks we have another Tnt in our midst with good common sense.....if you're not thinking of being a trainer, Piglet, you should be. We all know that t-tapp isn't just about the exercise but it's about general over all wellness and you are getting into all the principles! I'm proud of you!

Vanessa, I'm not sure what day it will be....50 or 52.....but you are going to love that day!!!!! It will make reference to Max Lucado....watch for it.....has nothing to do with stomach growling, though!!!

OK, my humble opinion on the stomach growl! I don't know what the scientific research is on the subject and a lot of times scientific research does not sit well with me anyway. Take for instance the subject of thirst and if you wait til you're thirsty, you're already dehydrated.....well, why would God make our bodies that way? Why would he give us a hunger trigger that tells us when we are hungry and when we are satisfied, but when it comes to thirst He makes it so we're dehydrated before we feel thirsty? This has never made sense to me, although something triggered in my little pea brain this morning that has me finally thinking "maybe, just maybe, the pundits are right on this one!" Dr. Joel Fuhrman of Eat to Live fame says if you eat the proper amount of veggies and fruits in your diet, you are not going to need to drink as much water as we've been told for years and your body will stay well hydrated. That makes sense to me....don't ask me why, I'm not scientific, it just does. Anyway, then I thought, well Dr. F's way of eating is closer to what God designed for us so maybe He did make our thirst mechanism to kick in when our bodies are in danger of being dehydrated.....I don't know, just a thought.

OK now to stomach growling.....I don't believe (again no scientific research on my part, just observation of different folks.....personal experience in other words) everyone's stomach growls when they first experience hunger. In fact, Dr. Fuhrman is always mentioning "mouth hunger" which I NEVER experienced.....have no idea what THAT feels like! I, also, did weigh down many years ago, Vanessa, and when I first did it, I waited for hunger and mine was a very empty, hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach. What waiting for that feeling did for me was to make me more aware of the food I was eating.....it tasted a hundred times better than ever before and I quickly knew when I had had enough. I used to be afraid that if I waited until I was hungry to eat, I would overeat, but for me that is the only way I KNOW when I've had enough and if I am mindful of my body's reaction, I WILL stop when I'm satisfied and not overeat. When I eat my normal, overeating type of way, I never feel any trigger telling me to stop.....I just finally have to say "look girl, you've had enough, quit now!" So, feeling that trigger was huge for me and very exciting to experience.......doesn't take much to entertain me! Anyway, my stomach does not growl when it's hungry and it has growled before when I was not hungry! The Lord's Table is a heart program more than it is a nutritional one. I don't think the folks there are grounded solidly in nutrition, nor do they claim to be.....they are totally after the heart, and what typically follows is weight loss, so as far as knowing for certain that yes, when you get hungry your stomach IS going to growl, I doubt that they can or will say that. Their experience may be that "their" stomach growls when they are hungry and so they ask that you wait for that.....or it may be that that is just their guideline and all they are saying really is "wait until you're hungry". If your body has a different way of telling you when you are hungry, then listen to it. Just be sure you are not playing mind games with yourself and telling yourself it's real hunger when all it is, is that you WANT to eat.

Eating 4-5 x's a day would trigger overeating in me, so I think you need to be mindful, again, of YOUR body......does it do well eating several mini meals and can you control your eating that way, or do you find you just graze all day and never feel hungry. Everyone is different, so just learn your body. Follow the heart teaching in TLT and you will be fine.

OK, I'm sorry this is so long and all just my 2 cents worth anyway, which is probably worth even less to you!

And to the trainer who is doing TLT, could you pm me? I have a question!

Good luck, Vanessa! PM me when you get to the Max Lucado day and tell me what you think!

Love, Jean

Hi, Asha!!!!

[aj]

I have to chime in. I completed TLT over the summer and it transformed me. I am completely different and love it. I still am struggling with stop eating when full, but I keep praying and working on it.

I have low blood sugar (hypoglycemic) and an ulcer that flares up and can not wait usually for hunger pains to eat. I too think each one is different, therefore you're hunger queues will be different. I sometimes get hunger pains not long after I eat what I would consider a large meal.

What I loved more about TLT is fully submitting and allowing the HS to lead me. I know that when I do not feed the HS, I quickly fall back into me, me, me and all that goes with that. I agree with the above post and it's stated in TLT that they are not about nutrition. I am one that knows a lot about nutrition, I needed more than knowing, and TLT helped me find what is missing. I have faced a lot of road blocks, both mentally and physically, which I think come with fully submitting. Fortunately my God is bigger than that.

[JeanM]

April, you are right, there is a combination needed.....knowledge is great and for some it might be all they need to lose weight, but for others of us, there is another part to the equation that is necessary and it doesn't become about losing weight anymore; however, the lost weight becomes a wonderful side effect!

Jean

[rmajor]

I agree with what Jean has shared. True hunger has a different way of manifesting in people. Sometimes I have a growl, but other times I may start getting a headache... and I've had the hollow feeling too. I notice now, doing T-Tapp regularly and upping my water intake, that I'm having growls mostly. So many things influence us daily...

:) Jennifer

[Requin]

My stomach virtually never growls. I can (and frequently) go 8 hours without eating (work schedule, and I can get so busy I forget to eat), and my stomach never growls. Eating only when my stomach growled would likely starve me.

But, if your stomach does growl, it might work. All I know is I'm terrible for eating regularly, and my stomach never growls.

[Lori French]

I was always taught that stomach growling it *not* a sign of hunger, but digestion at work. Food, digestive juices, air, along with muscle contractions, all moving around and doing their jobs. When you get to where your stomach is nearly empty, the noises echo louder which some say is hunger pains, but for me it's not, just the digestive noises. Of course I have not read TLT, maybe they explain it the same way, LOL!

[JeanM]

Lori & Requin, It has been awhile since I read the eating plans for The Lord's Table, so I went back this evening and did so. "Optional" Plan 2 for eating is called GBS: Permission Based Eating. GBS stands for Growly Belly Syndrome! Mike Cleveland, the founder of this program describes what is his signal for hunger as 3 stomach growls. He states at the very end of the article that not all people experience stomach growls for hunger and to determine what your RHS (real hunger signal) is and use that as your permission to eat. He says that when you are experiencing real hunger your body is burning fat and I have heard this somewhere else also. I think his article is so interesting that I'm going to copy and paste it here. I am taking out a paragraph that might be offenseive to some, but the rest of it I can't imagine how it could offend. If you want to read it all, though, you can go to the website to do so. This is long, but I found it very interesting.



This is optional plan 2


“GBS: Permission-Based Eating”*


GBS: Permission-Based Eating –

What does that mean? You’ll laugh when you hear it, but here goes:

GBS=Growly Belly Syndrome
Permission-Based Eating=Eating only when our bodies gives us permission to do so (by growling at us).

There we have it, scientific-sounding, but really quite silly.

But let’s examine this concept for just a second, as I do think if you use it it will be quite helpful to you for actually losing weight.

The stomach growling is our built-in hunger-notification mechanism. God made us wonderfully, designing us to know when to eat (when our stomachs growl) and when to drink (when we are thirsty). The growling belly is really an indication that our bodies are burning fat. We can be fairly certain that when people who promote various diets say, “I ate whatever I wanted, lost 80 pounds, and was never hungry” they are most likely not being truthful (or they do not understand what “hunger” is). In order to lose weight, the body must enter into fat-burning mode, which may be physically experienced in the body as “stomach growls.”

Now, this becomes clearer when someone, who is not used to exercising, begins to exercise. Quite suddenly, they begin to experience real hunger, complete with stomach growls and all. The reason for this is obvious, they are beginning to expend more calories than they are taking in, so their bodies enter the fat-burning mode and they are signaled by their bodies that they are hungry.

So the first and most obvious way to achieve fat-burning mode (and be alerted to this phenomenon by “Growly Belly Syndrome”) is to increase our exercise. For instance, I always take the stairs instead of the elevator, trying to average 10,000 steps a day. I do weight training several days a week, cardiovascular training (my personal favorite is the elliptical machine) as often as I can. These things increase my energy expenditure. Maybe you can think of ways to increase your expenditure of calories, also. Usually there is quite a bit we can do to increase our expenditure if we just think on it some.

The next way to achieve fat-burning mode is to decrease the amount of food I eat. However, this is a bit tricky, because if I under eat (just as when I overeat) my metabolism slows down and, after a time, I cease experiencing GBS and therefore I know I am not in fat-burning mode (instead, I am in starvation mode, where my body conserves fat). So I have learned to experiment with portion size so as to always experience GBS before I eat my next meal. My personal requirement is to have 3 good “growls” before I eat the next meal (except for breakfast, of course), those “growls” being the permission I need in order to eat. If I eat before the growls, I am not eating because I am hungry, but for some other reason. It is also helpful to eat smaller meals, more frequently, as this helps to keep our metabolism up and our blood sugar stable. Four to six smaller meals eaten every 3-4 hours, helps the system to remain in fat burning mode, providing more efficient burning of calories. Smaller meals, eaten throughout the course of the day, helps us to experience GBS more often than eating 2-3 large meals, spaced at longer intervals.

Now, with this understanding, everything becomes quite simplified, doesn’t it. I now do not have to monitor how many calories I eat, keep track of fat grams (either “good” OR “bad” fat grams), nor do I have to care what particular kinds of food I am eating, or how I am combining them. All I care about (as far as losing weight is concerned) is whether or not my body is in fat-burning mode, which is indicated by GBS. If I happen to overeat one meal, I will know it by the time my next mealtime rolls around, for my body will not give me permission to eat at the normal time (by growling at me). The whole process becomes quite simplified, and is made easy to understand.

Now, when I hear from someone, “I just don’t know whether I can continue, because I’m hungry,” my first thought is to say, “Of course you are! There is no other way to lose weight than to experience the growling in your belly!” It should not be thought strange to be hungry. What is strange is that, for so many years, we have stuffed ourselves so much that we don’t even know what hunger is anymore. Listen friends, it is a blessing to be hungry! It shows that we are eating correctly, that we are not overeating, that we are expending enough calories, and that the body is paging us that it is time to eat. I have come to love GBS, for I know exactly what is happening when I experience those growls; my body is burning fat. It is a good thing. It is to be desired.

Sue, on the The Lord’s Table discussion group wrote, “I think we need to remember that there are very, very few of us who cannot make it to the next meal without starving. We will not die or pass out (but I used to think that I would!). Now I rejoice in that feeling of hunger because it means I'm being obedient, and that when I eat my next meal it will be because my body needs it, not my heart.” Very good, Sue!

Let me give you an example: I ate a normal breakfast today, around 8:00 a.m. - Strawberry Frosted Mini Wheats. Have you had those? I just really enjoy them. I’m thinking we should start a “Strawberry Frosted Mini Wheat diet”. What do you think? (That is a joke.) I had a normal portion, just one bowl is all. Then I went to our public rec center and did exactly one hour on the elliptical machine, followed by 20 minutes of weight training. I drove home, showered, did some errands, picked up my family and, since we were given a special “honorarium” for speaking at a recent conference, we took our kids to Chuck E. Cheese. We left our house about noon, but I noticed that I did not have the usual GBS at that time. I don’t know exactly why that was, because normally the growls come right about noon. But on the drive up to Chuck E. Cheese (it is about an hour drive) I caught three good growls, about five minutes apart, starting right around 12:50, which made me glad. I then ate a normal-sized lunch and, experienced good growls shortly before dinner, and once again shortly before bed time. This is good, right and normal. It is to be desired, not resisted. So, all in all, it was a very good day of eating disciplined and exercising normally. I had GBS before each meal which gave me permission to eat.

I hope you are catching the vision of the simplicity of this system. Utilizing this method, you simply learn to listen to your body. You listen to the indicators God wonderfully gave you. You can literally throw out all counting, all monitoring of calories, fats, carbs, etc. etc. and instead simply ask your body’s permission to eat and listen for its response. For weight loss, you simply wait until your body signals you are hungry (by giving you several good growls) then you eat only enough to extinguish the growling and then wait to eat again until your body growls at you. This way, you will have several good growls throughout the day, indicating your body is in fat-burning mode, and you are actually losing weight. Simple.

This method also could replace (or be used in addition to) the “half days, liquid days, etc.” which we have included with The Lord’s Table, Phase I. Again, that plan is merely a “starting plan,” or “training wheels” until we learn to eat disciplined and exercise normally. This system, if followed, also keeps us from starving ourselves for, when we starve ourselves, we move out of fat-burning mode and into starvation mode, and we no longer experience GBS. Isn’t it amazing that God designed our bodies to signal hunger only when we eat and exercise normally?

One word just now about monitoring. I have noticed on the TLT discussion group lately that people are talking about recording everything we eat; some say this would be bad in that it would focus us on food, others say it is another form of accountability and can be beneficial to do. I tend to agree with the latter viewpoint, especially for a season. In other words, recording what we eat can be good for a time, until we discover what and how much we are really eating. It can be a form of “walking in the light” so that we can see clearly how much food we are really ingesting. But I don’t believe it has to be a permanent thing. It really should only be temporary, just until we move to “GBS: Permission Based Eating.” That is, it can help us for a time, but ultimately we want to move to where we simply listen to our bodies as to when we are hungry and when we are thirsty.

One final word, and I will close. There are spiritual forces acting against us when we decide we have to live with hunger pangs. So, while weight loss is quite simple physically, we must remember that we are in a spiritual battle. Our flesh hates to be uncomfortable, the devil loves to dangle food before our eyes just as he did with Eve, and the world makes the most scrumptious-tasting food (Bam! Take it up a notch!) available. So we are used to pandering to our flesh and we whine and complain if we experience any discomfort. The Christian must learn to resist this serving of the flesh.

There are many spiritual benefits to fasting, and we highly recommend doing so on a weekly basis. One way to implement fasting into this plan is to begin after dinner the evening before your fast, and drink only liquids for 24 hours, ending your fast with a light supper on the evening of your fast day.

"Paragraph deleted here"

GBS: Permission Based Eating can really transform your physical body, and, if experienced every day, can do so quite quickly. Give it a try for a few days or a week, and see if it might not just become a very good habit in your life.

*This plan should not be used by pregnant or nursing moms, diabetics, anyone who is underweight, or with any other medical contra-indication for doing so. In addition, we realize that not everyone will experience a growling belly. If you are one of these people, simply substitute “RHS” (your body’s specific “real hunger signal”) for “GBS.”




grace and truth,

Mike Cleveland

[Leese]

This is so much like Weigh Down. My personal experience with it was not good. My body went into starvation mode. I was not eliminating. I was never hungry. It messed me up in ways that are still an issue several years later. These programs work great for some..just didn't for me.

[JeanM]

Lisa, you are absolutely right, this is not for everyone! I don't know if you read the article or not, but Mike does caution that you can eat too few calories and you have to be on guard against that. Because this is more a spirtual program and weight loss is secondary, for nutrition's sake it leaves a little to be desired. Only from what you said, my guess is that you were eating the Standard American diet and when you cut back you weren't putting nutrients (none in the SAD food!) in your body so it experienced a double whammy and really left you in a mess. What do you do now food and nutrition wise? Do you still have ramifications from doing Weigh Down? If you do, do you mind sharing your experience just from the health standpoint of your body? I posted some excerpts from Dr. Fuhrman's book Eat to Live on another thread....maybe some of that would strike a chord with you and pique your interest in reading the book if you haven't already. I'd just love to know how you are doing and what you do for either weight control if you need it or healthy eating.

Take care, sweetie, and thanks for your input.

Love, Jean

[Leese]

You would be right about what I was feeding my body and the double whammy. I hadn't thought of it that way before. I do not remember what I ate for breakfast...more than likely a piece of toast or a half of a bagel. For lunch I would eat a quarter of a cup of homemade mac and cheese. After eating this I felt so incredibly full it was hard to deal with.

I do still have ramifications such as a bigger tendency towards Candida, issues with elimination (meaning, I don't have bms anywhere near the frequency I did before the program...tho I should mention that elimination has been an issue since I was a kid). Probably the biggest issue for me has been confusion about the "right way" to eat. "If my stomach isn't growling and I eat, am I sinning?" What led me to the starvation mode was that my stomach rarely, if ever, growled. I rarely felt hungry, even while eating the teeny tiny portions I was eating. The portions were teeny because it didn't take much for me to get full. I mean, a quarter of a cup of mac and cheese and I am stuffed??? Then I would hear that I needed several smaller meals during the day, especially because I deal with hypoglycemia. But if I ate that way, and wasn't hungry, I'd deal with guilt for eating even tho my stomach didn't growl. It was not fun for awhile.

Now, I eat things like Ezekial bread for breakfast. Leftovers for lunch which usually includes meat and two or three veggies. Sometimes I skip the meat and just have the veggies. Supper is similiar. I have eaten the GM/MM way and that has served me well, I need to get back to it!

[JeanM]

Oh, Lisa, I'm so sorry you've had so much trouble. I truly think it can be traced back to the Standard American Diet, where for years we've eaten so much processed food and very little food that nourishes us. Do you know that a piece of toast or half a bagel is really just worthless as far as nourishing your body.....so you've given it food (if you can call it that) that your body has to work to get rid of and it's got no nutrients in it for fuel to stoke your body so it CAN work. And the same thing with your macaroni and cheese. I assume the macaroni is the processed white stuff that has no nutrition in it at all and the cheese probably was not raw.....am I right? If I am, then so far you don't have much in your body by way of nourishment. I hope this isn't coming across as mean, because I honestly really do feel for you, Lisa. I know how it feels to be so confused about which program is the right one to follow. I can only say that I read and read and read and took what made sense to me and what didn't I just ignored. The God made diet makes sense. Most of Dr. Fuhrman's diet makes sense to me. From the size you have listed in your tag line, it wouldn't seem you have any weight to lose? I don't know how tall you are, but I can't imagine you're short enough to be overweight at a size 4!!!!

Good luck to you, Lisa, in learning to eat to heal your precious body. Take care of yourself.

Love, Jean
PS I do realize from your post that you have changed your diet some from the bagel/mac/cheese one! The Ezekiel bread is a better choice and the veggies are good.....best if they are raw or only lightly steamed......maybe could add a few more.....and some raw fruit?

[VanessaS]

Thanks everyone for being a sounding board!! This was really good.
Jean you hit some nails on the head . . ."What waiting for that feeling did for me was to make me more aware of the food I was eating.....it tasted a hundred times better than ever before and I quickly knew when I had had enough. I used to be afraid that if I waited until I was hungry to eat, I would overeat, but for me that is the only way I KNOW when I've had enough and if I am mindful of my body's reaction, I WILL stop when I'm satisfied and not overeat. When I eat my normal, overeating type of way, I never feel any trigger telling me to stop.....I just finally have to say "look girl, you've had enough, quit now!" "
This describes me!! If I wait too long to eat - a belly growl - then I typically do stuff myself because I'm SO hungry and eat way to fast. And like you eating 4-5x/day would totally invite overeating!!

I feel like I'm still on the road to figuring out what the Lord's plan is for MY body - plus factor in that I'm nursing my 4mo daughter.

This was very helpful!! Thanks everyone . . .
Jean I'll PM you on the Max Lucado day - sounds wonderful!!

[Leese]

Jean-As I said :) I do see your point in how I was feeding my body...it has been baby steps for me. My experience with Weigh Down occured several years ago and I've learned a lot since then! I am not trying to lose weight anymore...my quest is getting the belly to cooperate, but that is more of a discipline thing with me right now. I don't see your comments as mean, so don't worry about that.

[JeanM]

Lisa, it's baby steps with me, too! I KNOW what I'm supposed to do, but doing it is another story!

Take care, kiddo!

Jean

[aj]

Lisa {{{{hugs}}}}
I just want to say that I didn't think TLT doled out the guilt that I heard those not losing with the Weigh Down experienced. Guilt is not accepting the forgiveness. If you feel guilty, just take a moment to forgive yourself because you are already forgiven.

I do think in encouraging writing down your food intake TLT does not advocate eating under 1200 calories for a woman. You need at least this much. If you're body signals are so messed up, eating at regular intervals will be the only way for you to go. The whole point of eating is to feed the flesh, not the soul. TLT points out that the Word is the only place to nourish the soul. So if you know you need to eat and are eating reasonable amount of food, there should be no guilt.

I have low blood sugar and that usually is my signal that I need to eat than stomach pains. I also have trouble with BM if I eat too much white flour products (chicken and dumplings HA). I love fruit, but most fruit is too sugary for my blood sugar. I tracked what I ate the first 5 months of this year. When I was within 1300-1500 calories, I lost weight, ate regularly, more healthy food and my blood sugar didn't bother me. I started the day with Kashi high fiber cereal. I injured myself so I did not do a lot of exercise during this time. When I did start exercise, I had to increase my food because my blood sugar was off.

I'm still allowing changes to be made with me. I've had a few health issues that have me gaining the same 7 pounds and losing it when I'm better. I will say I've kept the 15 pounds off that I lost during the 5 months and I'm thankful for that.